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This is the channel for the discussion of metaphysical and parapsychological subjects. Please keep discussion of these topics to this channel and out of the rest of the server.
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Deleted User 8/24/2020 6:51 AM
For right now I'm just trying to understand the boundaries of the imagination
6:53 AM
I'm not going to make a tulpa myself
6:54 AM
Recreational reading is about as far as visualization techniques have penetrated into the public consciousness but I don't think it'll stay that way forever. Good to know what's coming
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Unfastened Belts 8/24/2020 7:18 AM
More demons and such :) Fun for the whole family
4:57 AM
Hope the video title qualifies it for this channel...
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 2:11 AM
@Memento Mori :3 Well, I asked him on how to start exercising such an ability, and sadly he didn't really have as much as an answer as I was looking for. Maybe if I pry more next time I talk to him, I might be able to get him to think of exercises to get started.
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 2:56 AM
Oh hey I was actually Eastern Orthodox for a portion of my life
2:56 AM
I haven't really studied into that much information though
2:57 AM
Infact I haven't heard much of visualization as being in the realm of the demonic, but yes dreams could potentially.
2:57 AM
Prelest is the big issue i recall
3:00 AM
or spiritual delusions and false spiritual experiences
3:02 AM
Overall yeah the East Orthodox greatly ephesize the mystical aspect of the church. I heard one priest say churches are like spiritual "drinking fountains" in a broken world. Saint John of Shanghai is an awesome saint I must add
3:08 AM
I recall Seraphim of Sarov being my favorite, I still have an icon of him somwhere
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Healing from dissociative identity disorder (D.I.D.) or multiple personality disorder (MPD). Christian support and answers. Help for alters and related emotional pain. Relieving your inner pain. Understanding your inner child
4:01 AM
Multiple personality disorder & evil spirit. Are Dissociative Identity Disorder alters demonic? Evil spirit deliverance. Christian help. Casting out demons
4:01 AM
this second one might be more useful
4:02 AM
Presumption Versus Spiritual Revelation To anyone who knows the reality of demons, it is an obvious presumption that if someone has within him personalities that do evil without his conscious control or even his awareness, it must be demonic. But no matter how obvious it is to us, until one stops presuming and seeks the mind of God about a particular instance, it remains a presumption. And presumptions are dangerous. “Lean not on your own understanding,” (Proverbs 3:5 – see also these Scriptures) is wisdom that is both inspired and profound. Surely if someone has intelligences within him that are not his, they must be demons. But what if the intelligences/personalities are not foreign entities after all? What if one’s mind has simply lost awareness of part of itself, like the mind can suppress memories and lose contact with that part of itself? People can walk in their sleep and do weird, out-of-character things in their dreams, without it being demonic. It is possible for anyone’s deeply troubled mind to do anything else along these lines and it not be demonic? Concluding that someone has a demon is such a grave matter that it demands extreme caution. As explained at the end of this webpage (see The Devastation of Mistaking an Alter for a Demon) mistakenly treating a part of a person as a demon can have appalling ramifications. No matter how sincere the mistake, it is an atrocious offense to afflict a Christian who is already reeling in unfathomable agony by falsely accusing him/her of having a demon. (edited)
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Pinging @Deleted User
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 4:21 AM
Hello
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Thoughts on ^ above?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 4:26 AM
I'm pulling up some of my books, this might take a moment
4:27 AM
@Deleted User I'm glad you're a fan of Saint John of Shanghai and San Fransisco, I'm pulling partially from several books written/compiled by Fr. Seraphim Rose, who had him as a spiritual father
4:28 AM
And Hieromonk Damascene, who's the current abbot of Fr. Seraphim's monastery
4:30 AM
Here's a mega folder full of resources including the books I'm about to post screencaps from: https://mega.nz/folder/oZwkUK7b#HJ8w0iF48ss5Cjv8Kbc5Pw
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 4:40 AM
Yooo thanks man, I might have to check the tao of christ out honestly I heard of that book before
4:46 AM
Christ the Eternal Tao is a blast
4:46 AM
What pulled you away from Orthodoxy? I was baptized recently
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My condolences
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 4:48 AM
shoo shoo brain goblin
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Ow that hurt 😦
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 4:48 AM
Congratulations! I don't feel comfortable telling my whole story atm, but it was a sort of combination between some iffy relationship with the clergy, and some struggles in my life. I don't really have a huge grip with the Orthodox though
4:49 AM
Well there's never been a better time to jump back into it, lemme get those caps
4:51 AM
Perhaps one day lol.
4:51 AM
anyways Imma head to bed, night yall
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Night bilbo
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:19 AM
night
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So RegularReptile
5:21 AM
Visualization = (potentially) demonic, right?
5:21 AM
What about hearing stuff in your head? Say, composing a symphony? Or having a song stuck in your head?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:21 AM
@JGC I'm not saying that all DID sufferers are demonaics. I'm just saying that attempting to form another consciousness within your own mind through visualization techniques etc is asking for trouble
5:23 AM
@Unfastened Belts Double thought/imagination/the intellectual faculty are understood as the lower part of the soul and typically as a consequence of the fall. It's not evil by itself but it's the vector of attack
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Hmmmmm
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:24 AM
Nepsis(watchfulness) is all about cutting off that vector and not letting demons or your own habits bait you into passions through thoughts and images
5:25 AM
It's largely why visualization techniques are foreign to authentic traditional Christian mysticism
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Right but then there are composers of church music, say
5:26 AM
I guess it's harmless as long as it's "to the glory of God"?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:28 AM
That's a bit different from a spiritual technique. There are Roman Catholic practices which encourage visualization of Christ and saints etc, which is a vector for prelest
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What's prelest?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:29 AM
spiritual deception/delusion
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How about the Revelation to John? Did he really manage to write all that without visualizing any of it?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:29 AM
It's how people end up with false visions and prophesies, believing they're communicating with saints or getting special messages from "angels" telling them they're super special or all these things
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Yeah, just like the Revelation to John? 😄
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:30 AM
John didn't get that vision through visualization techniques. He abode in the nous and God revealed it to him
5:31 AM
He saw the heavenly liturgy that first temple and Orthodox churches alike are modeled after
5:31 AM
Same as Moses and Isaiah
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I mean yeah but he didn't physically see it, it was a "vision" (i. e. internal), except induced by an angel, right?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:34 AM
Induced by the Holy Spirit, and while it was internal in a sense I'm not sure if he didn't also physically see it. But dermining true or false visions does require spiritual discernment which is what Christian spiritual practice is designed to cultivate
5:34 AM
This is very different from making a thoughtform and inviting/imposing a consciousness onto it
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By the way so demons
5:37 AM
They must be fucking idiots, right?
5:38 AM
They must realize their endgame is to be extinguished together with Satan and all that
5:38 AM
"Well we're doomed anyway, guess we might as well have some fun and mess with humans"
5:41 AM
"Oh, oh, but instead of making them burn down churches and steal from the poor, we'll try something even more wicked! We'll make them believe that there are two or more entities peacefully co-existing in the same body! Yeah, that'll really make God angry"
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:43 AM
If demons were rational they wouldn't have picked a fight with God.
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Yeah, hence my saying they must be fucking idiots
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:46 AM
But more to the point, they tend to have a vested interest in getting people to believe in materialism, new age stuff etc in the first place which if nothing else the whole tulpa thing presupposes. There will never be such a thing as an Orthodox tulpa because there'd never be a safe or legitimate way to make one
5:46 AM
If nothing else they've got that going for them.
5:47 AM
I'm sure your host has made bad decisions due to pride or jealousy. It's not hard to understand
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The question whether tulpas presuppose materialism aside, can you detail why demons would have a vested interest in making humans believe anything? Do they get special rewards from Satan? Or less severe punishment from God once the time comes?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:49 AM
They like setting people up and then kicking people down the stairs. They just hate everyone, eternal seething. Demons will get humans to believe in anything that might be built on presuppositions that hurt them spiritually
5:51 AM
Again if you've ever seen or heard of those youtube animal torture groups or even any kind of comedy at other peoples' expense it's not hard to understand
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Are visualization techniques (which, as you've been told, are not at all required to make a tulpa) and their doctrinal condemnation the only reason you'd think that tulpas would hurt their hosts spiritually?
5:54 AM
Again if you've ever seen or heard of those youtube animal torture groups or even any kind of comedy at other peoples' expense it's not hard to understand
I'm really failing to understand what animal torture or mean-spirited comedy have to do with visualization and headmates
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 5:54 AM
Building things out of mental relational structures rather than images isn't much different and still works through the lower soul, and there are more specific consequences to the idea that you can just invite a concious being into your head without problems
5:55 AM
You were asking about demon motivations. You're being disingenuous
5:56 AM
What's your host thinking about all this
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I'm not being disingenuous, I'm genuinely failing to see how creating (not inviting, btw) a conscious entity is considered to be as spiritually abusive as kicking someone down the stairs or torturing an animal
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:02 AM
If you think you're creating it, and it's not material, then you're subscribing to a metaphysical framework completely alien to Orthodoxy and therefore with vastly different spirtual consequences. If you're creating it and you're a materialist, you've got all of the problems that come from materialism. Both lead to alienation from God, which results in Hell, which is typically unpleasant
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Both lead to alienation from God, which results in Hell, which is typically unpleasant
At least you've got a sense of humour, lol
6:03 AM
This does leave open a slim possibility of enjoying Hell 🙂 I guess I won't have to dissipate myself in order to please Yahweh after all
6:04 AM
Hey okay hypothetical scenario
6:05 AM
Let's say someone creates (or "invites") a tulpa, they spend ten years together, developing a rich, complex relationship
6:05 AM
Then the host is converted to Orthdoxy by a roadside priest
6:05 AM
Would the host have to destroy his headmate and friend in order to avoid hell?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:05 AM
Incidentally, there have been spritual frameworks similar to Orthodoxy. That's part of what the aforementioned Christ the Eternal Tao is about. It just wasn't complete
6:09 AM
This question presupposes that the headmate is a genuinely separate being, which an Orthodox person would understand as having its own soul. You can't destroy a soul but it would have to leave. If it isn't genuinely distinct, then he's just getting rid of an imaginary friend
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You can't destroy a soul but it would have to leave.
What would be the difference in practice? Where would a tulpa leave to?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:12 AM
Probably the next poor sucker
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Ooookay but that's not how tulpas work
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:12 AM
I don't mean that the personality and form would transfer
6:13 AM
I just mean the spirit operating it
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What makes you assume that it's not being operated by the same spirit as the host?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:13 AM
If it is, it's just an imaginary friend. No harm in getting rid of it
6:14 AM
If it's not, there's really really no harm in getting rid of it
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No harm in getting rid of it
So is it fair to assume you've done zero research on tulpamancy other than joining this server?
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Deleted User 8/31/2020 6:15 AM
I'm saying that you wouldn't be in the moral wrong
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Getting rid of a headmate is universally described as a heart-wrenching process that is only ever used as a last straw if the relationship becomes severely toxic
6:15 AM
(Which, mind you, is probably 1 % of cases)
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